Welcome to the Empirical Cycling Podcast. I'm your host, Kolie Moore. Thank you, everybody, for listening, as always. And if you are new here and you like what you're hearing, please consider subscribing to the podcast. And if you are returning and you also really like what you're hearing, we assume so because you're coming back. Thanks so much for coming back. We love having you. And if you want to support the podcast, you can always give us a nice rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. 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If, yeah, if we have any really good results, we will definitely let you all know about that. All right. And today we have an interview. I am talking with one of my longtime clients. We've been working together for five, five plus years now, something like that. And he's come a long way. We kind of use that as our jumping off point. I mean, this is a very, in general, it's a very relatable conversation because we're talking about stress management and compartmentalizing and kind of trade-offs and sacrifice and things like that. with life and bike racing and bike training and relationships with food and body weight and things like that. Stuff probably just about everybody goes through. But some of it's not so relatable. Some of it's aspirational, I would say, because he's won a national championship. He's gained over 100 watts of FTP. And he's also been probably a shining example of a person that I I just love working with people like him because he realizes his own agency as a client and he's also helped me a long way in terms of understanding communication and coaching responsibilities versus client responsibilities and kind of meeting in the middle and being able to discuss lots of stuff. So he's so great to work with. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have worked with him for so long. And I'm really happy that we got to get him on the podcast. And so I hope everybody enjoys my conversation here with Cole Tambury. When we started together and I counted back, I think it was like... Late 2018 or early 2019 or something like that. Sounds right. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And you were a student at BC. And I think your threshold intervals were around like 300-something watts, like 300 watts, I think? Yeah, the first threshold test I did was in 2018, I think. It was like 276 or something was the FTP. And that was a 20-minute test, too. Yeah. And you are currently in Colorado, smashing out threshold efforts at like about 400 watts or a little over. Yeah, something like that. I mean, I mean... I am personally, I'm jealous. I mean, it's the coolest thing to be coaching, but I'm just like, I'm just like, man, I just, that's such, you know, like it's all the hard work, but also at the same time, like, you know, obviously you've got the gift. Yeah. It's one of those things. It's like, I mean, I'm almost super, I'm really, I think, happy that it happened in that direction. I have known lots of people, you know, I've been racing for not super long, but maybe seven years now, and seriously, maybe three or four, and I think that I've met a lot of people who, like, were super, super good when they were young, and wins just came easily. Like, they won all their Cat 5 races, they won all their Cat 4 races, they started moving up pretty easily, they had the Cat 1 in, like, one or two years. And then, it's hard. It's hard when you get up there because you don't get to cat one by losing races. And so then it's kind of, I think people almost fall out of love with it or get frustrated or it depends on the person. Some people are not that way, certainly, but I know lots of people who kind of like were really good to begin with and, you know, got there and are just sort of... learning how to really struggle in race in the elites. And for me, it was always, you know, even now, these last couple of years have been incredible. I mean, that's, I think, where we saw the biggest leap in training and also in fitness and race craft and everything. And it still is like, every time I make the selection in a Colorado road race, even like a local road race, it's like, wow. this is great you know I never thought I'd be here because I was like in the in the cat threes watching all the guys who in New England watching all the guys who like without without fail always made the break and I'm like how do they do that and so I'm really thankful that it's I think it's given me a good perspective on on on racing and I just have fun every time I go out so yeah it was it's been a it's been a big leap for sure from when I first started out and we sort of piece it together in a couple of different ways that we'll talk about but yeah it's I definitely prefer it this way, so it's been good. Yeah, well, I think it's that you had the struggle early on, like in terms of learning, learning the training, learning the nutrition, learning... you know learning the racing and you know and I think at this point you know learning the racing is still like high on our goal list for you too because because you know your white whale is making it to making it to the end of the GMSR crit uh every year you get closer and closer and closer yeah yeah it's uh that's and that's that's a great I mean that's uh when you put that question in for the for the as a suggestion like you could have just come out and said it uh but uh yeah I mean that We could jump right into that. I think that race, just because it's, I mean, it's so hard and it's kind of a legendary race in New England and now becoming across the country, it's, first of all, it's a great race. It's really hard, but individually, I think it's a good way to frame a lot of the things that I personally struggled with. I mean, what I wrote down or the thought that I had was basically, you know, there are races in which Most of them. For a couple of years, I could get away with bad pack work, bad positioning, that sort of thing with fitness, especially as I got more fit. And there are situations in which I could get away with not having a super high top end by trying to go off the front. This is basically how I raced in 2023. And it worked great. But that's not going to work. The GMSR crit is, You know, you have to be good at riding in the pack. You have to be good at positioning. You have to be good at the top end. It doesn't matter how high your FTP is if you can't do those things. I know lots of really, really fast dudes who just cannot, can't do that. And so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's a really, it's amazing that that race exists because for me individually, it's kind of like, these are the things that I was really bad at, even when I was starting to get good at cycling. And so every year. And this year, especially, I was really proud of how that race went. I mean, I was happy with everything. It was just like, just barely, just barely not enough to make that front group. And that was really fulfilling for me. Because for years, like you said, it's just one of those things that's like, okay, this is where I need to improve. This is the sort of thing. But it's always been sort of like, this is so hard. I can't ever see myself finishing this race. And yeah, so we're still having things like that. And that's, I think, what keeps me coming back. Because every race situation is different. And also, there are these perennial races that you know are going to be the same, but you still just have to kind of crack the code, I suppose. Yeah, and not only that, but I mean, it's approximately the same level of competition always shows up, especially for GMSR. Same level of climbers, same level of continental teams who will show up to... because they missed the stage racing that happens early in the summer in the U.S. I mean, speaking of stage races, like you had a hell of a Gila this year too. Yeah, Gila was great. I mean, that was, that was, this was, so this was my, I guess to frame it, I mean, this was my first year racing for a team that does the big races in the U.S., racing for this Rio Grande team and Fort Collins with a lot of good guys and some really good support. And so it was my first time going to like the UCI Gila, for example, my first time at Gila in general. And that's another race. It's one of those situations that is, it's amazing how much you can learn in five days. Like, you know, the first stage is the first time you're in that it's strung out for like 80 miles going towards the base of the climb. And you're just trying to fight for position the entire time. And if you don't have the confidence at that level, if you don't have sort of the wherewithal or the strength or the go-get-em attitude to take a spot when it appears to you, it's not going to work out well and it didn't. But then, you know, if you really, I've always said that stage racing, that sort of thing is one of my strengths and it kind of materialized this year because I might not come good on day one. And we talked, we talked a lot about that this year. Like stage one is always my worst. Yeah. Stage one is, it was for the first three stages of the year was, was my worst stage, but just taking care of yourself over, over four or five days and, and sort of having the mental attitude to, to push through what's difficult. I mean, it's, it's a matter of how much you're enjoying yourself of a four or five day stage race, especially a heel is hard. And then, so coming into the time trial on day three, it was really nice to, to, to. see that I have the fitness at least to be up with the top whatever 25% of guys. And then the crit is day four. I had an unlucky situation where I dropped my chain with like six laps to go and learned on the day that that's not a recognized mishap. So it's just one of those things. It's like, oh, this is, you know. It's a setback and like you're thinking about a GC result, but then putting it together on day five for the queen stage on the Gila monster was, it was really nice to kind of step up to that level and yeah, be really challenged with that first day and kind of finding my footing at that level of racing, but be able to put it together the first time to a certain extent was, was, was motivating. It was really good. Yeah, it's a big confidence booster, especially, you know, having not been able to finish the GMSR crit, which to all purposes is a little bit lower level. And then coming to Gila and holding my own is a good feeling. So this year was great. Yeah, well, I actually think the GMSR crit is probably one of the harder crits in the country, especially when you, I would actually put it up there with like the Joe Martin crit in terms of being hard because it's got a hill, it's got a chicane, it's full gas from the gun, it's narrow in a lot of points and you can easily, if you start in the wrong position or if you don't like, if you start on the back of that race and you don't make it up to the front within like two or three laps, like you are not going to be finishing that race. Exactly, and it's just one of those things, it's, it's, that's, that's, you know, you can have that goal also, but everybody knows that about that race. I remember my first time in the elites, my first time in the elites two and two years ago in change. We were like, okay, we gotta be at the front row. And everybody felt that way, and all of a sudden we were, you know, there were three kind of races. You race to the start, so you get to the staging like a half hour ahead of time. And then... Half hour, wow. That late? Yeah. This year, yeah, I know. We were like second row half hours this year. And then like the second staging area before people get called up, that's another, and then to the start line itself. And then, of course, the neutral lap. And that's one of those situations. This will be, you know, to lots of your listeners who are... Kind of comes naturally to be positioning and moving up through the pack. It's like, well, yeah, that's just what you do. For someone like me, and I think there's lots of guys like this who, you know, came into this with sort of a fitness mindset and really liked the athletic aspect of it and sort of thought that we could trust our fitness to get us through anything, that's just not the case. And that's the beautiful thing about cycling. I mean, I can't explain to you, this year, you know, it was just barely... not enough to make it to that front group at like 40 minutes. But I cannot explain to you or express to you really the feeling of finally saying like, okay, we're going to be, me and a couple of teammates, we're going to be the front row behind the moto after the neutral lap, in air quotes. And to be behind the motor after the initial lap, I mean, that's a great feeling, especially when it's something that you've been challenged by. And that takes different forms for everybody, but for me, that's one of those things that's really rewarding. And I think that it's everything. It's just throwing myself into races and situations I'm uncomfortable with over the last few years that really gets you to that situation. Yeah. Actually, one of the cool things from track racing that I think a lot of roadies who don't race track may not realize is that neutral doesn't mean slow. Neutral means together. Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think roadies also have this weird idea of what neutral looks like because in the first, you know, like two to five K or whatever neutral is for a road race, a lot of the time the moto car or the car lead car is probably going like, you know, 30k an hour or something, and you're just, and you are just spinning at like 50 watts going, I thought I was going to use this to warm up, oh my god, I'm barely pedaling, and then you get in a crit, and it's just like, the moto takes off, and if you got somebody like off the back with a mechanical in that lap, they'll slow you down, or they'll keep doing the neutral, but like, yeah, it's, it's another thing. It's hard, it's a different, it's definitely, I mean, it's definitely a distinctly American thing, I mean, you see, Certainly the couple of pedal strokes after the neutral lap is hard in most races, but there definitely is a different edge to it with American Criterium Racing, which is a little bit more hardcore. I mean, you're going at not super slow and not super fast, but you're working really hard in that first lap to get to the front. Maybe I'm talking too much about this, but it's... One of those things that I really had to learn to do, just kind of put yourself in places where you think you can maybe fit and just sort of trust that you'll be able to. Well, I think European classics are a lot like that, but it's a weird level of fitness crossover because you not only have to be good at the aggression part of criterions, but you also have to have like super road race fitness. Like you've got to be able to survive like a three, four hour crit basically. Right. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's something I would be down to explore in the future. We'll see if the opportunity presents itself, but it sounds like, yeah. For now, you know, you'll learn the same lessons at some other races here, I think, so. Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll see where your academics take you. I mean, because you've been basically racing collegiate this entire time. So walk me through your journey of starting with collegiate and kind of where you're at now and what the future holds for you. Sure. Yeah, so I started at Boston College in 2016, and I was a swimmer in high school and sort of was good, not great, wasn't good enough to get recruited, but sort of... maybe was going to walk on to the team there and decided kind of last minute that like, you know what, I'm not going to do this. I kind of need time for my academics and the things that I want to do career-wise and so thought I would pick up something that's a little bit more flexible with the training. The irony, of course, is that I ended up cycling much more than I ever swam, but at least on my schedule. So I joined club cycling at BC and was racing. pretty much raced right away. This was before we were working together, but in March 2017 was my first race at the Flyer, which is the rest in peace. Philly Flyer, yeah. Yeah, the Philly Flyer, which is the traditional opener. A lot of people in New England will be aware of the nutritional opener for the season, and that was great. I remember I like, it was super cold, as it usually is at the Flyer, and I sort of... crashed like right after the downhill and had to put my chain back on and chase back on and got you know ended up something like sixth or seventh or whatever and there's like the D race or whatever and it was like the combination of the adrenaline and and everything else that comes with being in the pack and also exercising really hard I remember calling my dad being like that was awesome and I've had so many different calls like that over the years but that was for sure the first one and I was actually What was cool was I remember that season and the ones afterwards. What I really loved at the time was the team time trial. And I had a couple of people, shout out Ben Egan and Sean Quinn at BC who were seniors when I was a freshman that were in the C time trial. And so they pulled me up from the Ds and I would race with them. Wait, that Sean Quinn? No, no, actually, you know what, I never made that connection, Sean, H-H-A-W-N, that's wild, I can't believe, yeah, no, Benny Good and Sean, yeah, yeah, Sean Quinn was racing C's in 2018, amazing, no, so we, we, and we ended up, I think I remember, like, we were, like, second or something in the, the collegiate C's conference championship or whatever, that, that year in the TTT, and that was, I thought that was awesome, but I also remember. the years after that, watching the MIT women who had just won the time trial. I think Emma Edwards had won the crit the same year that they won the TTT or something. Yeah, I was coaching Emma that year. That's right. Yeah, she was, I believe it was Triple T and she won the Criterium, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was great. I remember, I mean, Emma was awesome. I'm sure she still is. Yeah, absolutely. A really nice person. I remember seeing them walk around in their like full American, like their U.S. Netty Champs kit at the Bucknell Cycling Classic in 2018 and thinking that was the coolest thing. So anyways, yeah, and I raced a bit more, I mean, my senior year was 2020 and so we didn't race that year or the year afterwards. I remember actually really looking forward to actually kind of putting some trends just kind of maybe a year after we had been working together in 2020 and I remember being like oh this is a great maybe I'll make it to nationals or something if I'll try to do that which would have been something that BC we hadn't had someone go to nationals in a while and then I remember when everything started happening with COVID walking into my roommates and saying to my roommate who was also a cyclist man it would just be the Wouldn't it just be the perfect end to our time here if everything got canceled and we didn't get to race at all this season? And I think I probably jigs it for all of us. Well, yeah, and then I, as ECCC conference director at the time, was like, yeah, we are canceling all racing. Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, that sucked. Yeah, it is what it is. But no, I mean, it wasn't your fault. But I mean, look, it was a blessing in disguise. I hate to say that about the pandemic. It was an awful thing. You hear lots of people. But I did have the opportunity because I was working for my mentor at MIT, actually. one of my first serious research projects at the end of my undergrad, but I was able to do it remotely, and it was already set up that way when the pandemic started, so I got to finish my degree at BC living from home, living at my mom's place, and Honestly, just riding. I mean, I remember we spent a couple of months in the pandemic training for like a Greylock time trial trying to go up Mount Greylock really fast, which is probably the first time that I really put in a decent amount of miles over a short period of time because I was just at home. I mean, that's the story for a lot of people, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then, yeah, that summer I had been accepted to and was going to go to the University of Colorado Boulder. to do a PhD in astrophysics, which is where I am now still. That was four years ago and changed. So I have two more years in the program and started racing there. And as much as the atmosphere at BC and having like a good group of people to interact with and also the people from B2C2 Cycling in Boston who ended up being some really good friends of mine and a really great sense of community in Boston. That was great, but all of that was completely different, obviously, from the set of people that you meet when you're in Boulder. And especially at CU Boulder, where the team has had several national championships over the last couple of years. They were like three-time repeat TTT club netty champs. A lot of my... Good Friends were on those teams, and people that I would just ride with, and so it was definitely, it was certainly a step up, I remember the group, I, and actually one of my first friends in Boulder was somebody who you introduced me to, Nikolai. Nikolai, yeah. Nikolai LeSegor, who is still a really good friend of mine, and we would just, we were kind of, we would just ride a bunch, we had some fast friends who would, Margot Klein and John Keller and a couple others who we would ride with, those. That first year, I suppose, of the pandemic, because we still weren't really racing in 2021 too much. Certainly not at the collegiate level, though there were still some other races going on. And yeah, so then I got really involved in the CU cycling thing. And through all of this, I think that I had dipped my toe a little bit, certainly had done a couple of, you know, open races, Killington Stage Race, a few others in the local area. But I always felt most comfortable, I suppose, in the collegiate cycling sphere. I mean, it was, it felt a lot safer to me. It felt a lot more welcoming. The attitude was much less, you know. Kind of Macho and, and, and toxic, which I think it can be a lot of the time. Uh, collegiate cycling is just a lot of fun. It's people who are your age and, and it's, it's, it's the best thing, maybe not the best supported thing, unfortunately, but it's the best thing that USA Cycling offers, I think. And that's not to say it's, it's, it's kind of secondary to real racing. I mean, there are tons of people, especially at CU, who came from, from collegiate cycling and then ended up, uh, winning the VALTA, for example. So it's, it's, yeah, it was always great. And so I was really stoked to kind of get, get together with the team and, and meet some new people and, and race at a higher level at, at CU. And actually when my first year at CU, I remember Nikolai and I were talking and saying like, wow, we're both kind of fit. Uh, we work with the same guy. It would be really cool if we like this next year, we just really committed ourselves to the team time trial, um, in the hopes that we would go to the nationals for that in, in 2022. Nikolai is a powerhouse. He's one of those guys who could just put down watts. And so riding with him was really great at that time for me. And then there were a couple of other people who we ended up riding with and things were going really well. But this was one of those things that I definitely over-prepared for the team time trial. I definitely saw this team time trial and I was like, oh my God. I mean, I really like this. We have four guys who are six foot to six foot. with a threshold of like 370, 380. It's got to go well. And the one weakness, honestly, I was so bad at bike handling, the one weakness was whether I was going to be able to hold the wheel in the corners. That was honestly what we worked on for six months. We had some... Yeah, that was a weekly Triple T practice for you guys, I remember. It was. I remember we started to organize it because I knew this is a weakness of mine and so we would have Grant Elwood, another friend of ours, who would come out and help us with that sort of thing because he's a really experienced racer and a nice guy and so we... Yeah, we just put a lot into it. And I remember Grant actually was kind of not overconfident, but Grant had already won a team time trial. He had been competitive in the collegiate cycling sphere for a while. And this was going to be our first shot at the national championship going into Augusta in 2022. And so Nikolai and I were really stoked for it. and Grant was just kind of like he's just got to chill out like it's going to happen or it's not going to happen. We ended up winning by a good margin and I mean that was that was looking back it's kind of like you know we were primed perfectly to do that but that was that was a really kind of emotional as emotional as it gets you know taking not taking myself too seriously I suppose in this sport. But to be working towards something like that and to have seen, like I mentioned, to have seen, you know, Emma and the MIT team walking around like that my first couple of years of cycling and then to be there. Yeah, it was really great. It was, I think, a really good, the first full circle moment that I had in cycling. And so, yeah, and then... Well, I think not only that, but like you also did it with some really good friends. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's one of the things that is kind of unheralded in collegiate cycling is all the people I know from collegiate cycling. Like, you know, a lot of the time, you know, there's like the odd friend or two from high school at your wedding or your graduation or your thesis defense. But like, so often I see people like fly over entire oceans to go to their collegiate cycling teammates wedding. or, you know, like christening or baby shower or something like that. And like, you know, this is the kind of stuff that really lasts. Yeah, it does. I mean, it's funny because the three of us, three of us in the TTT team were grad students and Nikolai was the only one who was an undergrad at the time. Yeah, he's a really close friend of mine. Those other two, we hang out all the time and it's just one of those. It just made it fun, you know, through both at BC and NCU, my best friends in both situations, the people I like to hang out with, the people I got along with the best were also the people I was racing with. And I think that a lot of the time you do get into situations where ideally you get along really well with your teammates in whatever sphere you exist in in cycling, but that's not always available to you. I mean, especially kind of at the elite level you... Get into situations where you kind of have to be hanging around these people because they're on your team. And not that that's ever really happened to me too much, but I have heard things from others who, you know, go to Europe and trying to take advantage of an opportunity, but it's not as comfortable as maybe it would be at home. And that's just sort of how sport goes, but especially in cycling. But yeah, collegiate cycling gives that sense of community. It's not just the people on your team. I have some good friends from Colorado State over here also who we raced against. We just saw each other every weekend, twice a weekend. And people from BU back when I was at BC who I still say hi to when they come to races. Even just people in this sphere. We have somebody who's associated with empirical cycling, actually, who's visiting, who's out in Boulder right now and everybody's aware of and wants to ride with. And so it's just this whole community that I really don't know if it exists quite as much in cycling as a whole. It certainly does. I mean, there's a sense of community with everybody that I race with. But especially... being in that unique situation of being a student and also trying to ride at the same time, even if they're not at your same school, that forms a special bond. That's really a neat thing. Everybody wants to race. Yeah, I completely agree. And also, I mean, collegiate is unique in the amount of cheering for each other people do. And I mean... I just remember pre-pandemic, it's kind of abated a little bit now, but pre-pandemic, a lot of the collegiate teams that would show up, like, if you weren't racing, you were standing on a corner marshalling to help out the race. Like, there were just, it was just like, there were too many volunteers, and that was a good problem to have, and now it's the opposite problem of like, where are all the volunteers? But, you know, it's, I also think that it's great for performance in that when you are in a comfortable environment, everybody When they're done racing, relaxes. You know that you can kind of chill around these people. You can take a nap without anybody drawing dicks on your face. You can, you could be, or without getting like hot sauce, like your friend's putting hot sauce in your mouth. Like it happened to me a couple of times. Like, you know, the prank hot sauce that's like ridiculously hot that they would only have is like the last wing on hot ones kind of stuff. Sure. That's the kind of pranks that don't happen in collegiate cycling for the most part. I think in mountain biking it's a little different. Yeah, I don't know that fear too much, but yeah. But for roadies, especially roadies, because that's the one I know the best, is like when you are done racing, it's so easy to just shut down and relax. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's something that I've struggled with a lot. I mean, I, I, everybody who knows me, I have friends who will joke about this. Anybody who knows me knows that I, you know, I was not, I kind of, and this is something else that maybe we can talk about, but in college, because I was in, I was majoring in physics, which is pretty intense, and cycling is pretty intense and all that, and I just kind of wasn't in this fear of kind of kicking back, and I think that was to my detriment a lot of the time. But certainly within the collegiate cycling sphere, it presents that opportunity to do so. in a much more wholesome way than maybe exists outside of that. And also, I mean, just to point on the team aspect or the familiarity and lack of selflessness, I suppose, that goes into collegiate cycling. Collegiate cycling also is what taught me sort of the balances of what you give to a cycling team. You know, even that 2022 season as a whole, I think that it was the first time where I was sort of in the headspace where I knew my strengths, I knew what my specific goals were, and I was willing to give myself to people who were more talented at other parts. of the sport. At the time, I was not going to contend for a road race win. I was not, you know, somebody who had the skill to position or the top-end power to kind of be at the pointy end of a race. Fortunately, that's changed since then, but at the time, I kind of knew where my strength was, and that was being able to put out power for a while. And so that helped a lot in the TTT and individual time trials and things like that, but then I could also sort of use that strength for people who are much more talented and are now racing at a high. to try to put something together in the road race. We had one race at the Maverick Classic, which is kind of the season over. It's kind of the Philly Flyer almost for Colorado cycling. Like everybody goes out to Grand Junction for the first race of the season. And we had a guy who we were working with who like flatted twice. Me and a teammate had to go back and pull him back on both times. And then like the minute that I got him back onto the group, I had to like go to the front to do my job up there. So I was exhausted by the end and he ended up winning the race and it was like... That's what teaches you the most fulfilling parts of the sport, I suppose, is to be able to sort of share the spoils, I suppose. And CU Cycling also, you know, there's lots of really talented guys out here that you can work for and work with and who will work for you. And yeah, if you have that aura of community, I suppose, that collegiate cycling lends itself to, I think it's a good space to be in and definitely what made me fall in love with the sport. Yeah, well, speaking of school and training, how did you get to eventually managing the balance between the training and the schooling? Because, you know, a PhD in astrophysics, like, that's no fucking joke. Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, it's an intense program and it's an intense sport. I think that I was in a unique situation where I... was entering during the pandemic. And so to be honest, there wasn't much else to do outside of school and cycling. And so I sort of had an excuse, I suppose, to be taking classes, to be working most days of the week, and then also to be training. I mean, the challenge for that is to learn how to relax and how to rest. And that was something that came a little bit later. But as far as fitting together both things, there are a couple of There are a couple of things that I would say. I mean, you have to be doing something you love. I mean, if I didn't adore the work that I'm doing academically and also adore the sport that I'm participating in, the racing and the training and everything that goes with it, it would be impossible. There's a benefit to be getting your degree and training for a sport, and I think a lot of people take advantage of this, partially because that's where you are in your life at that age and partially because of this. It's a flexible lifestyle. I mean, I don't, I work a lot, but it's not a 9 to 5. And so you can sort of pick and choose when you're training and when you're working as long as you're getting things done. And that's dependent on the program itself. But, you know, it's flexible, but only really worth it if you're willing to give your time to it. And I think that you have to sort of, for me, it was a matter of, it was much easier, I suppose, to do this when I said, okay, I'm going to actually try to really. Get Good at This. You know, like when I'm just sort of riding 15, 20 hours a week for the sake of it, it's great. You know, it's really good for your health. But as far as the cycling itself goes, it's not having a goal and having kind of an all-in attitude towards something. I think that individually, for me, that was the best way to go. And this is different for different people. For me, it was a lot easier to say, okay, this is the opportunity in my life that I have to sort of try this and not have anything else suffer that I'm doing. I might as well go all in and be smart about it also. I mean, on the other side of that, it's kind of a balance between it is a lot. You're going to have to expect to make some sacrifices, which is why it's only really worth it. For me, it was only really worth to do it if I was going to go for it. But also patience. I mean, there's also the attitude that's like we had our first fall, no, maybe our second fall and winter in Boulder. I have the opportunity to sort of have a full week off for Thanksgiving. from school and work. And I remember, I think it was 2021, maybe, the fall of the Thanksgiving of 2021, that we just decided we were going to ride a bunch. And since then, every year, we've sort of done like 40 hours or something. Something like that. Something truly horrendous for most people. Something crazy. Yeah, yeah. And it was just a matter of, it's just a matter of like, okay, this is the opportunity I have. I'm going to take it. I'm kind of at a place where I have no other responsibilities in my life. Wife and Kids, that sort of thing, and so I might as well give it a go, and we did that for three years, and I think that that, I mean, there are other things that go into it, consistent training through the year and everything, but I respond decently well to volume, and having that kind of focused attitude for a certain period of time has always been good. I think that it's just a matter of, this is kind of a long-winded way to say, essentially, You need to know when to give your energy to certain things. When I'm working, I'm working. And when I'm training, I'm training. And that breaks down between days, hours of a day, days of a week, months of a year, weeks of a year, whatever the time period is. There are a few weeks during the year that I've learned, a few months, I suppose, or periods during the year, the last couple of years where I've learned, okay, if I want to pay dividends on the bike. This is, we have the volume block in like November, maybe this will change a little bit this year, and then we have a VO2 block. And that, those two things have been kind of perennial for the last few years, and psychologically and physiologically, I think that I've ended a bunch from kind of giving myself entirely to those two periods, and also whatever we need to do during the year. But then also, there are periods of the year like right now, when, you know, I have the opportunity to... Get a lot done at work and be productive there. And so it's just a matter of kind of managing your time, doing something that you really love to do and making sure that it's still enjoyable. I think that the experience itself and the situation you put yourself in is a really good opportunity to... You know, bike racing is fun. It can be intense. It can be a lot. A lot of people at this level especially are trying to do it because that's kind of their option. That's kind of what they're trying to do professionally and that's getting harder and harder. But if you're working on an advanced degree or even just your undergraduate degree while you're doing this, it offers you the flexibility like I was talking about to sort of... partition out times of your life when you can give to training and racing and then also your education and then a significant amount of time to the sport itself. And also have something real, I suppose, that you're doing in the background, something that I'm really going to make my living, I suppose, in the future. And so I think that keeping it fun and making it... something that I enjoy to do no matter how hard or serious the races get has been a key to that. Also, let me point out just how silly it sounded for just a second. I mean, those are all awesome advice and awesome thoughts, but for a second, it sounded silly to me. It was like, I went all in on cycling while also getting my PhD in astrophysics. Right. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, if it doesn't, it's like you say, look, exhaustion is a funny thing. I suppose. Exhaustion is a funny thing because a lot of the time you don't really realize you're exhausted. I think that if I... It's the frog in the boiling water. Yeah, exactly. And that can be good and bad. The good is that you can push yourself to different limits. And I don't know if this is really part of your coaching philosophy a lot of the time, but you can push yourself to doing things that kind of sound ridiculous like that if you really enjoy what you're doing. Like if everything is secure and you are actively working towards something in both aspects of your life that you really enjoy doing, that gives itself... It's a kind of exhaustion that's really comfortable and fulfilling at the end of the day. That fatigue security blanket, nice and cozy. Exactly, right. Yes, exactly. That's right. I forget to remember that term. Actually, I remember texting you after I heard that term. Oh, that was years ago now. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, there's a limit to that, of course. You have to rest. But it's also, yeah, it's... It's a tenuous thing because they're both very difficult and you sort of have to, to a certain extent, be naturally talented at both of them, depending on the level that you want to race. But if it's something that's fulfilling to you, it tends to fill your cup while you're doing it as well. So you just have to know when to back off, I think, is the lesson. Yeah, actually, that was going to be my next thought, which is everything comes at a cost. a free, no free training without fatigue, you know, it's, uh, what's that phrase? There's no free supper, lunch, no free lunch. Um, and I think that, um, you know, I think you've probably come a long way, probably you definitely have come a long way in terms of being able to recognize the fatigue and also not only that, but also I think recognize your own agency as an athlete, uh, in terms of not only communicating with me, but also just being like, Oh, I'm just not going to do this workout. I'm too tired. Tell me about that because I think for a while when we started, it was quite different. I think you were one of the many, many people who think, oh, the plan is the plan. It's written its own. If I don't do it perfectly, because it's like from a physicist, you get P sets every week. This is the exact rubric. Okay, we're going to dot our eyes and cross our T's and make sure we've got all our mathematical notation down. When it comes to cycling, one of the things I've been saying to people the last couple of years, I don't know if I've said it on the podcast yet, but the training plan is not written in stone, and it's also not written in water. Shout out to my boy, John Keats. It's written in sand. You can rewrite it, no problem. It's easy. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. I think that the biggest advance that we've had, I suppose, in the coach-athlete relationship is essentially, it goes two ways. I mean, one is learning to Trust You. And that was the first thing that came. I think a couple of years into when we were working together, it was, that was when I entered that sort of like, okay, you know, this is actually working. If I follow this plan. It takes a little time to see, but yeah, it's working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for me. And some people are a little bit more trusting, but I was coming from a different headspace with lots of different things. But it took me a little while, but realizing that, you know, if you follow this and rest when you're supposed to rest and do. I mean, the biggest benefit that I had from training was being able to both have someone tell me, training with a coach, have someone tell me when it's time to rest, but also have someone tell me when I could do more than I thought I could do. I never would have done one of those Thanksgiving blocks or double VOT days for three weeks, three times a week, if I didn't have someone telling me, you can probably physiologically handle this. So that's one thing. I mean, trusting that is, I think, the first stage that you get with the coach. And that's something that came relatively early in our relationship. But yeah, after that, it's, and this, I don't know, it's easy to say I was, I was kind of dumb. I was, I was not as experienced. I was, you know, bullheaded and thinking I could just push through every workout. But I think that, you know, it's, it's kind of just time. It's kind of just like, you don't actually, I mean, certainly I actively had to convince myself, okay, this is a good time to back off. But maybe a few more, like a year or so after we really started to kind of. have that relationship of trust was when I started to just learn my body more. There are days when I will say, I just can't do this for hair right now. I need to go home and eat a lot. And that happened a few times over the course of a year. And that was tied to something else that was going on in my relationship with food. But it was something that really benefited my... It was a big benefit to me to come to that. sort of experience, to be able to say, okay, I don't really need to do this workout right now. This second VO2 day, there is still a couple of times. We did a block, I think, in like the late spring, I want to say, which is kind of rare of a couple of these double VO2s when I remember a couple of times being halfway through a workout in the afternoon, and I have always struggled with the heat and PM workouts, especially in the summer. I remember being like halfway through a couple of these and being like, this is, why am I doing this? This is not. This is not helping me. This is kind of silly. And so, you know, you still fall into the old habits occasionally, but on the whole, you're right. I think we've gotten a lot better at sort of having that. And you obviously leave the door open, I suppose, for that sort of thing. On the other hand, I still do this, and I'll be the first to admit that there are situations in which you give me, like... Like, I don't know, 4x15 at threshold and I will be at the watt or one watt above the goal or something. Or do another couple, which is, you know, probably the better way to go about these things. Yeah, you go for extra credit on all your homework. I do, I do. I like to do it. And so it's all just learning your body. It's all just sort of trusting your, I mean... You're not getting faster while you're training, right? It's you're getting faster when you're recovering from the training. Yeah, you are distinctly and definitively getting worse while you are training because you are accumulating fatigue and it's when you recover from all of that. I mean, it's the basic training response impulse model. It's the Bannister's very basic model. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's, yeah, so that's been the biggest thing. I mean, that's, that's where you want to get to is, is a point where people, a lot of people I think, and myself included, sort of starting working with a coach thinking there's all my, I don't have to think I can just, you know, put the, put the workout into my Wahoo and it'll tell me when I need to pedal hard and not, but you know, all of this is really hard. And, and especially with cycling, I mean, I've done some running training in the past also. That one is, with running, it's almost a little bit more, you learn your lesson much quicker, or you should, because if you do too much to your body, you will break. With cycling, you can push through a heck of a lot. You can dig yourself into a hell of a hole because of the low impact and everything else that's going on. But that hole can be pretty deep. This is a situation we got into. I think the last real time that we had this was probably August and September last year when I got back from GMSR. I don't know what happens if we spent too much time at sea level or if I was trying to push through too much or trying to do too much extra stuff. Yeah, I was really, really deep into the hole then. And that's a situation you can get yourself in distinctly with running, or sorry, with cycling in the overtraining sphere, because you can just push yourself super hard. And I think that one thing that you pointed out to me is kind of a last note on this. One of the ways to tell if you are doing too much is if I have lots of those little rides, and I'm sure you've noticed this over the years where I'm like, I'm super tired, I'm really probably psychologically not in it in the race mindset, I just kind of want to pedal really hard, and I go out and do something stupid like just pedal super hard for like three, four hours in a way that's definitely going to hurt my racing, but it's like just that little hit of adrenaline and self-confidence that I need for that particular day. And that's when it's time to back off. That's when it's time to back off. to like, I'm relying on this for my mental health and that's not the best thing. I mean, one of the biggest things the last couple of years has been to rely on not just cycling but other parts of my life that make me really happy in order to be kind of a complete person because then you get yourself into the situation where you're relying on cycling a little bit less to be constant and that's super good for racing. Yeah, well, I think also... When you make cycling your everything and you are only as good as your last result or you are only as good as your FTP or even worse, you are only as good as your last workout. I mean, at most workouts go pretty well for most people. And that's one of my personal red flags is if you start failing workouts on a regular basis. And it's been a while since you've done that. I mean, because you'll see right away, all right, my legs aren't where I'm supposed to be or my head's not where it's supposed to be. and all of these things kind of say tired. Right. And I think you're absolutely right. Actually, one of the, I remember definitively last fall, one of the things that we had talked about was like when you went back to New England, back to sea level for a couple of weeks before JMSR, you were like, I want to hit up some group rides. I want to hit up. a couple practice crits. And instead of like going in there and sitting in and just being like, all right, I'm working on my skill set, like you raced, raced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And going from, you know, Colorado where you're, where, you know, you've got 300, what, 70, 80 watt FTP at the time maybe. Yeah. And down to sea level where you're effectively at like 400 plus watts. And then you really go for it. Like your muscle mass is not trained for those watts yet. Yeah. And that was one of the things that I remember this year. I was like, go down late. Just like going to altitude for C-level people. Go down late, have all those energy stores ready to go, and then when you actually hit the race, you will actually have the energy that you think you do. Right. And I think that was actually a really good lesson for me as a coach too. And working with you has been very good for me as a coach as well because I think especially when it comes to kind of communicating the goal of a workout. Like especially the closer we get to races, some workouts like, yeah, you should be pretty dead by the end of it. But other workouts are like maintenance workouts and you should feel, none of it should be grippy. You should be like, this is a breeze. I finished my two by 15 or whatever it is and I'm going to go home and I'm not even sure I need to eat. I will, but it wasn't that hard. Finally, I've got mental capacity to like. Hang out with people or do schoolwork or whatever you've got to do. And so that's been probably one of the biggest things that's changed with my approach is learning to communicate that kind of stuff. Yeah, that was super valuable for me. I think that's the one thing that I needed really as an athlete is to learn, you know. It don't matter how – I've had a decently high FTP for a long time or threshold and now just now other parts of the power curve are sort of starting to come together this last year. But the results did not – I mean I – From the standpoint of like the opposite of vanity, I love the first couple of years of my results page because I mean, it's just not good. It's just not good. And learning how to use the fitness, I think that's the beauty about cycling. I could very easily kind of see myself getting into a triathlon or something else where it really is just a fitness competition, but to my frustration at first and now to sort of my exhilaration. Cycling is not. And learning to trust that you're going to have the fitness on race day and also be thinking about other things and just being happy and not having to smash every single workout like you said is a big part of it. Yeah. So I think the last thing I want to touch on is what are the costs that you've paid like overall this time? Because there's no free lunch like we said or like I just remembered the phrases. Because I think most people who are like, all right, I'm going to go get my PhD, but I'm also going to take cycling seriously. Like you've got a cut from elsewhere in your life. So like, how has that happened for you? Boy, that's a good question. I think that there are little costs that you have in both. Think that there are occasions when you kind of do have to say that you're going to go train, which I think is, in terms of the relationship with work, I think it can be a good thing. I think that it's hard to say it's exactly a cost because it kind of can pull you away from doing like a 16-hour workday sometimes, but it's not the necessary thing to do. Stare it through your telescope or whatever you guys do. Yeah, right. Maybe that's the cost of, maybe that's just... takes away from a few hours of doing something you want to do. But I think that that can be a benefit as well. I think that, okay, here's one. The biggest cost that I've had over the last few years, unfortunately, last seven years, I suppose, unfortunately, the one that I'm not really dealing with right now. The first couple of years that I was cycling, I really got kind of deeply into a bad relationship with food. And that is not because of the nature of cycling itself. That's not because of how the sport Needs to be, but it is because of how the sport, I think, a lot of the time is structured. And so for the first couple of years that I was cycling before we were working together, and then even the last couple of years before, while we were working together because I was sort of coming out of it, it was, you know, I would do a 70-mile ride on like a banana and a granola bar and try to restrict my food as much as possible outside because of this like, you gotta train like a horse, eat like a rabbit. Mentality. Oh, I've never heard that one before. No, I did. And it's been ringing around on my head for the last six years. Oh, God. I'm sorry for all of our listeners who's going to have that ringing around their heads. No, please, please do not follow this advice. But it was, it was, I think that was, that's been the biggest struggle that I've had just being in the sports. And maybe this is a little bit different from the question you were asking in terms of balancing life. Oh, no, you interpret the question however you want. But I think that that's. That's the biggest cost that I've had in terms of being part of the sport. And now kind of being on the other side of it, I mean, the solution to that is it was very, it was slow and it happened over a few years, but it also sort of happened right when it was, that was another part of trusting the process. That was, I think, early in 2022. Everybody has their own relationship with their eating disorder and how they deal with it. you know went through a process of refeeding I suppose that I was trying to do balance while training that we sort of we sort of interacted with a lot and I think that that was that was um a really tough process for me coming out of out of that but obviously it paid dividends since then and so that was a challenge I suppose a psychological cost that I had to to pay in order to to become competitive at the sports and also kind of as an entry into the sport for me individually. And I really, I'm glad that the rhetoric around the food is changing when it comes to people's, at least I try to play my part in that, try to tell a new cyclist, no, you should eat more than you're eating. But that was the biggest challenge for me. In terms of other things in balancing life, I think that I, When I, especially when you're in grad school, when you're working on your PhD, especially after your prelims and your comps, the time, it's the best time of your life. It's very, very, you're working on stuff you like to do. getting paid for it and, you know, it's not a lot of money but it's enough to get comfortable. Technically you weren't paid, yeah. Yeah, technically. It's a lot more comfortable and you get a little bit more time and you can spend it on other things but I think that I did suffer in, the one thing that I always was willing to give up was my social life and I didn't have too much of it when I was in college. Maybe that wasn't a necessity. I'm not saying that you need to not have any friends when you're training and also working on your degree but Because of what I was dealing with and how I was approaching things, that was one thing that sort of just naturally happened. And I had fortunately met a group of people when I was in Boulder who are fantastic, have a really great attitude towards the sport, people who have been in the sport and people who are out of it. And for the first couple of years, even though that was also super intense, it was kind of like a group of people who were... involved in the sport but understood the cost that came with it and that you can't always just go out every night and enjoy yourself because you have a workout the next day and that's just a fact of the life of working on these two things simultaneously. And so it was a few years of kind of making that sacrifice socially to be like I kind of am limited in the amount that I can do outside of these two. It was a small price to pay, I think, for kind of getting into a healthy place with my body, with racing, with a career, and then now being able to sort of more comfortably experience all of these things simultaneously. I, you know, did not date for a few years when I was first cycling and, you know, it's... because it just wasn't in the front of my mind and again that's not something that that's a very specific to my kind of intensity I suppose but but it's yeah the cost certainly was socially um for the first couple years of of my cycling career and and then you learn how to balance it then you learn how to you learn yourself you don't it's just like racing I mean the more that you race at a higher level the more you train the more you work the more you spend time around people you like the older you get I suppose The less you have to think about these things, the less I have to think about what I'm going to prepare to train or to race the next day, the less I have to think about what I can or can't do in order to work or train productive with the next day socially, and all of these things kind of come together. And so I think it's just a matter of time. I think it is, you give up some sacrifices because there's only so many hours in the day, but on the other hand, you learn yourself, your body, your mind, your energy levels, all this sort of stuff. Well, I think it's really only a matter of time if you are How do I phrase this? If you are paying attention to your own betterment objectively, because I think you and I both know a lot of folks in the cycling world who are riding and eating and stressing about cycling in such a way that is greatly to their own detriment. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think paying attention to your performance. and your stress levels and your own happiness. I mean, that sounds like it's been, to sum it up, it's kind of been probably the biggest change for you. Right. Yeah, I think that's finding happiness in other parts of your life outside of cycling. I'm very fortunate to be around a lot of people who have my best interests in mind, have a very supportive family and romantic situation and friends and all this sort of stuff who are great and have... fantastic perspective on everything that happens and are successful in their own right and also are interesting people outside of that. And I think that the cost that I paid, I suppose, to really get into the sport was what I was talking about. But I don't know if it was entirely necessary. Certainly there are people who do not have that approach. But for me, that was just sort of what happened. And I think that a lot of it was because I was giving so much time to this cycling thing. Then, to be honest, I was lucky enough to fall into a situation where I just am fulfilled by other parts. You fill your cup in other parts of life, and that, you know, not by coincidence is when I started getting faster also, even though, you know, that's not the main focus of being happy, nor is it necessity, but it was a very happy side effect, I suppose. Yeah, well, I think also... I think also a lot of people pay that cost if they're generally not eating enough because that mental fog that you get from being behind in calories, like your brain needs fuel and when you're at rest, the brain is a huge consumer. and so that can keep a lot of people from doing social stuff, even like doing social stuff on the bike, just like, oh my god, I'm so tired, I don't want to have to talk to people, I'm just going to go do my five hour ride on a granola bar and a banana. Yeah, yeah, I don't, and this is the thing, I think that it is changing, maybe it's just changing within my sphere because I sort of associate with people that I think have a good attitude towards everything in the sports and outside of it, but I mean, there's all these little things like, I remember joking around with a friend a few years ago, maybe you have to cut this out, but it's kind of like, there's almost like on occasion, especially with some of the old-timer, not old-timers, but people from the last generation of cycling who were like, it's almost like a badge of honor when you've eaten so little and worked so hard that your sex drive starts to dip, for example, you know, which is super fucked up. It's a real thing that people kind of are proud of on occasion. And that's not everybody. That's just a few, you know, maybe a joke here or there, but I guarantee you there are people who say that seriously. I have heard people say that seriously. Yeah, that's a sure sign that your hormones are not in the right spot. And they have health implications too. At the highest level, certainly there are doctors and people who... who work on this sort of stuff in both women's and men's cycling now. But at the base level, at people who are racing, you know, even the elites in the US and domestically and then trying to get to that level there. I mean, you don't know about these things. You try to mention Red S to somebody and nobody knows what that is. A surprising number of people don't know who that is, what that is. Yeah, I've got all of the IOC publications on Red S and LEA. I've got them basically on speed dial at all times because I send them out so frequently. Yeah, exactly. And it's one of those things that people are like, oh my God, that can happen to you? Yeah, it's one of those things you look back in hindsight and you're like, huh, okay, well, probably. But yeah, it's just, it's another one of those things that's like you get all of this, there are lots of, how do I say this? There are lots of people saying really toxic things very confidently. in the sport that you're sort of consuming with all the media. And those things sort of stick in your head, especially as a young, I know I consider myself even when I was 17, 18, 19 as a fairly well-adjusted, intelligent person, but I fully believed everything that was sold to me when it came to how much you should eat and what you should eat and, you know, you should eat all organic food because, for some reason. And so... Yeah, there are just these little things that you sort of have to learn to come into your own about. Like, just make, you don't gotta fit into everything, the things that people are telling you. I got happy and productive in cycling when I started hanging out with the people who I thought had a good attitude towards things, when I started to realize that I had, to a certain extent, drunk the Kool-Aid on my way up, and also realized that, you know, the best way to be fast is to be happy, rested, and well-fed. So here's a question that I did not look up beforehand. Yeah. How much faster are you now than you were at your lightest? Oh my god. Actually, you know what? Okay, so here's the thing. So we, I just, as kind of a season ender, this is a really good, I think, a good... Wrap up? I'm going to pull this up. Yeah, this is a good way to summarize everything. My favorite mountain, you know, I live next to a bunch of different climbs in Boulder here. They're all fantastic. But certainly my favorite sort of psychological or emotional attachment mountain that I have is Mount Greylock in Western Massachusetts. We raced for it. It was my first category win or whatever. I think I was like 25th overall in 2018 when I was my lightest at like 145 pounds in 6'2", which was... too light. For me, some people, that's fine. Yeah, some people, that's as heavy as they can get. Yeah, exactly. For me, it was about 15, 20 pounds too light, 20 pounds, I would say. And I was, let's see. And then we went back as like a season ender this year. We went back to Greylock, the hill climb there as it was a fun day. It was really nice. The power wasn't even, wasn't really what we wanted, I guess, because it was like a week after GMSR. And again, I've been at sea level for a little while. and but we still you know we went super fast and and it was I think so 49 was in 2018 and then this year was nine minutes faster in a 40 minute climb uh 20 pounds heavier yeah there you go so and so that's that's that's that's yeah that's that's the difference of a few years of maturity and and training but also a few years of eating and Feeling more comfortable and all that sort of stuff. So I might have felt super good when I was, you know, 145 pounds and real thin, but I wasn't going to make a breakaway and I wasn't even going to get up the mountain very fast. So, yeah. Yeah. Who was that guy in the tour this year in the polka dot jersey for like the first week? Was it like Abrahamson? Was that his name? Oh, yeah, yeah, Abrahamson. Yeah. And what did he gain, like 30 or 40 pounds, something like that? Something like that. He ended up being a big boy. I mean, not even. He was just a healthy person. But yeah, I mean, that's his story as well. And that's not everybody. You know, all this is individual stuff that I'm saying, especially for me. I think I've lived sort of a pretty... intense mentality in both parts of the spectrum the last six or seven years when it comes to my attitude towards work and training and also kind of backing away from that. And that's just my story, but lots of other people will approach things differently, but certainly for me, from the weight standpoint, yeah, gaining that weight has made this sport a lot more fun for me and everything else in life as well. Yeah, it's weird that... When you've got enough energy to ride and adapt and also enough energy to go out and also live a life outside of cycling things that you are happy and you get faster. Isn't that something? We need research on this. It sounds too preposterous to be true. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It's pretty wild. Yeah. Any other thoughts before we get out of here? No, I think actually we covered quite a bit. So yeah. Yeah. Actually, I've got one more question. Sure. You do, you're in the gym about once a week for most of the year. Yeah. Talk to me about lifting weights and the benefits of keeping it in regularly. And also like, what's your specific routine? Because you are not smashing heavy squats every week of the year. Because first of all, that's ridiculous. Well, I do, but I'm also ridiculous. Definitely not every week. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, so talk to me about that. Yeah, well, we didn't, I mean, we weren't, we were lifting maybe, we started lifting, I want to say 2021, the fall we started. I think that was because you broke your collarbone and you needed to. No, it was a shoulder. Oh, it was your shoulder, that's it, yeah. Yeah. And you had to, and you had to like keep all those muscles strong around it. Yeah. And that was the original like start of. Oh, I'm just going to go and do some upper body stuff. And I was like, okay, cool. So yeah, you've been doing that for years. Yeah, we did do that a little bit. And then I think we maybe paused for a bit. And I was a little tentative about getting into the gym during the pandemic and everything. And so a couple of years, I just wasn't as good about it. But then I think we started up again after the, when I was in Boulder, 2021, 2022, just before things, we started to really train and I, you know, at a higher level. And I think that Yeah, that has been, I mean, there's a couple of different things there. But first of all, it's just, it makes such a big difference. I mean, we talk about the amount that my threshold, for example, has come up and that kind of fitness, five minute power, one minute power. I was like having trouble cracking the thousand watts for... at peak power when I was, you know, in 2018, 2019 or something like that. When you were 140-something pounds. Yeah, exactly. And now, you know, you're not going to, it doesn't matter what your threshold is. The thing about cycling is it doesn't matter what your threshold is if you can't get away from the group. So I think that getting to the gym, putting on a little bit of weight and having those fast-switch muscles. And so the process, what we sort of, I think, have fallen into the last few years is in the fall, we're getting into it again now. And then into winter, we'll lift maybe a couple times a week. Kind of heavy for a couple of months. Mixing it up between squats and deadlifts. I just programmed your next week as starting to get a little heavier than, yeah. Okay, great. Haven't looked at it yet. But the, yeah, so that is a real benefit. I mean, you start to see those benefits right away, I think. And that's something that I, you know, as a taller person with a higher center of gravity and not, you know, that's not my natural ability, those fast switch kind of strength-based things is. Not something that comes supernaturally to me. I think that it paid dividends a lot having that period of putting on some muscle. But on the other hand, you know, I am optimistic about this next year when it comes to strengthening because despite my, you know, the advances that we've made with nutrition and kind of eating enough and I was working with, for a couple of months, working with, what's her name? Namrita. Namrita, yeah, she was great. And that helped a lot, but still, the last couple of years, even last year, I was like, okay, off-season, I need to lose a little bit of weight in the back of my mind, which is, I think this is the first year, surprisingly, this is the first year where I'm like, I don't need to do that. We're good where we are. So I'm looking forward to actually kind of... and being able to not trying to balance both things at the same time. But in any case, yeah, we do that for a couple of months in the off-season and that it's just basic stuff. I mean, I'm not lifting crazy heavy stuff like I'm sure some of your athletes are. It's heavy for me, but it's, you know, it's all relative, I suppose. And it's hard, it's hard, certainly, but it's sort of something that I dedicate myself to for a couple of months. And then during the season, so there's the strength thing, but then during the season, I actually started this year lifting a little bit more in the late spring and summer when we were getting ready for GMSR because there wasn't much on my calendar and we could sort of just train and balance with work and everything and that was a good opportunity but I started to kind of introduce a little bit more in the gym in the spring but also mostly this summer and running a little bit also and I find that Maybe it's psychological or maybe there's some physiological things. Certainly you'd be able to tell me more about that. But I have found that it's great with, you know, psychological freshness if you're doing a couple of more different things. As much as I love cycling, it's good to mix it up a bit. You get a different kind of high if you need that sort of thing from being in the gym rather than having to go out for six hours in order to feel anything. but also it's great for weight management I have found in not like trying to be light as possible and not like trying to be super heavy but the times when I have been Running a couple of miles every few days. And this is a personal thing as well. You know, getting to the gym and doing some basic pretty light weights during the season and then also training on the bike and maybe giving up a little bit of time on the bike so I can do those other things has also been the time when I found that my weight is kind of constant. I'm eating enough and not feeling too bloated and not, you know, going through all those peaks and valleys that kind of were characteristic of my life for a couple of years. Certainly getting stronger. And so that has been a huge thing. And we talked about a little bit about that in the spring, I think, this year. I think that that's something that I, you know, when you get into trainings, there is every athlete when they're racing, training and racing and all of that, they... Find a few key workouts or things that they do in order to keep themselves psychologically fresh and convince themselves they're doing the right thing or heading in the right direction, and that can be a really good thing when you're training for a long time. And for me, I think that there are certain key workouts that we do that are like that, but there are also, you know, if I'm very process-oriented and I'm working in the gym and I'm doing all the things that I know for certainty have 100%, 10 out of 10 times, without fail, worked for me in the past. You can't say that about a lot of stuff in sport. That's true. Yeah, and that's one of those things for me, I think. Yeah, and you're like, I'm just going to send you into the gym to do a light routine kind of stuff. It's super simple. I'm going to read one of your gym days from August. 45 minutes, squat, calf raise, single leg press, leg extension, seated row, tricep extension, leg lifts. I assume that that's like the lying or the chair. Yeah, like the core sort of stuff, yeah. Yeah, and core and like that's it. And at no point did it ever look like it affected your workouts because I know that you are keeping it to like maybe a two to a four RPE and that's it. That's all you need because – and a lot of that kind of stuff is good for – you know like range of motion and it's also good for just like keeping your stuff loose but the danger for a lot of people is that they're gonna get into the gym and go heavy because they're scared of losing that strength and I think when you reframe strength as a skill as in the same way that like standing starts are a skill or the same way that you know sprinting or maybe a better way to put it is like Riding off-road, like riding through a rock garden. Like that's a skill. And strength is a skill like that. And when you don't practice it a lot, you are going to lose it. But still, if you're just doing some light lifting, you know, your muscle mass is going to, it's going to stick around. And you still get a lot of the benefits of everything you just listed. Yeah, I think it's another one of those things that just comes with time and experience, and you kind of have to put yourself a little bit outside of your comfort zone in order to learn these lessons. I mean, I've made a lot of mistakes the last few years, and it's only just, you know, you've got to make mistakes while also being sort of diligent about keeping notes about that sort of thing. I still look back at some of the, especially for GMSR crit, to bring it back to what we were talking about there, or to certain key strength workouts, or to certain FTP workouts, or like those minute... efforts that we were doing before big races a little bit for a couple of years. I would look back at the training peaks and say, okay, how did I feel? What did I say about this race or this workout the last time? How did I feel? What was I lifting at this time last year? Do I really need to put on that extra seven pounds of mass on the weight on the bar? You know, it's... It's all just sort of experience and you got to do things like nobody knows. One of the traps that we can fall into, I think, being exposed to lots of parts of social media and other people's training regimens and stuff that's much more publicized than it was in the past is that it seems like it comes super easy to lots of other people. That's just not, I mean, I don't care how talented you are. People get to this over years, and maybe it comes fast for some people, maybe it comes slower, but we have this impression that it's kind of instant gratification with learning how to do these sort of things, and that's just not the case. Distancing myself from the media consumption when it comes to that has been super helpful in long-term process goals. I mean, I'm lifting, like, not that much weight, especially the first couple years that I was doing it, and so if I'm comparing myself to somebody else, I'm not going to be doing that. Just trusting that what you're doing is the right thing to be doing and also being able to adjust and learn from your past experiences without comparing yourself to others and thinking like, I need to do this right now and this will be the silver bullet. for if I put this like jelly on my legs or if I take this shot of just stuff that tastes super disgusting. Grape jelly on the legs. You heard it here first. Exactly. If I drink this after this workout, I'm going to be Matthew Vanderpool. I'm going to improve my EPO production by drinking this thing after my workout. Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. Well, it can be dangerous at the highest levels, but at the lowest levels, it can just be unpleasant to have that mentality. Not see it pay the dividends that you are promised by the industry you're going to see. Yeah. And I think also there's a lot of selection bias when it comes to people at the top level or media in terms of what people choose to put on media. But also when it comes to bring it back to food and eating, a lot of the people at the top level have what the IOC, to bring it back there, would call functional LEA, functional low energy availability, where they've completely reorganize their life in order to have whatever little energy they have to put it on the bike and to make that look normal. And, you know, a lot of folks who can, you know, kind of perform half decently to be like way, what we would consider like way underweight, I mean, they are exceptions rather than like, this is going to work for everybody. And I think... I think not only that, but like, especially in terms of like comparing yourself to other people. I actually heard a great analogy for selection bias a couple of days ago. I don't really consume a lot of training media for cycling. Read none. I don't even listen to my own podcast. Don't worry. But I heard somebody say something about swimmers because you as a former swimmer. You've got what everybody would go, oh, you've got swimmer's shoulders, you know? Right. But here's what I heard. It was like, like looking at, you know, watching the Olympics on TV, like, oh, wow, swimmers have giant lats and big shoulders. So swimming must give you giant lats and big shoulders. And a lot of the time it's like, that's not the case. They've been selected for swimming at the highest level because they have giant lats and wide shoulders. Yeah, your bones don't get bigger because you're in the pool two hours a day. Yeah, exactly. Like, look at Stephen Kroeswick, the guy with the coat hanger. Yeah. Like, he's just built like that. Would have been a great 15, yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's, look, and this is, I think the lesson to take away there is that not everybody gets fast in the same way. I mean, there are people who have their nutritionists and their, their physios and everybody and everything and all the time in the world to, you know, living in Boulder, you, you, you. You ride group rides on the weekends with guys who are like that and who can do that and that's fantastic. I mean, it's awesome to be racing around those people because they're fast and the best way to get faster is one of the best ways to get faster is to ride with people who are faster than you from a very simple standpoint. But not everybody gets fast the same way. I mean, they have that advantage. People like me have the advantage that I can... and forced to put cycling aside and think about something else for the rest of my day and that's a really good psychological refresher and I think that can be that can be good as well so you just have to make everything make things work for you make coaching work for you I mean I was even wearing this is one of the things you told me I was wearing a whoop for like two and a half years which I justified because it caught Lyme disease once oh yeah before it got super bad and so it was great but it was also like I mean the attitude that we ended up having was like I didn't ever really I just, I made it work for me in the way that, that I don't use it anymore, but, but it was a fine product and those wearables can be good if you are realistic about how they can be, how they're useful for you. For me, it was like, you know, they have, whoop has the green, yellow, red thing, uh, you know, you should train if you're whatever. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the green, yellow, red workouts, yeah. Garmin tells you you need 72 hours to recover from this workout. I was like, no, I'm probably going to not do it. But I ended up learning, like, if I'm in the green, because this is when I was dealing with food stuff as well, if I'm in the green, that means I slept so well because I ate basically nothing the night before and I'm actually going to feel super bad on the bike. Right now. And so that was one of those things. And it's just a matter of there's no, you've talked about this in the past, like trying to fit training to the bell curve or trying to fit yourself to the psychological bell curve of what this Instagram person is saying is just not the, it might en masse, but a lot of large numbers be the best way to get the best, the greatest number of people fast. But for individuals, it's almost certainly not the best way to get yourself fast. Yeah, well, and the individualization is such a huge part of all of this because like if I gave your exact training plan to somebody else, it would probably not work at all for them. Yeah, sure. But also I think that the individualization aspect of things, like so it's fall, so I've been catching up on strength training stuff again and one of the things that I've been in trying to expand my learning of strength training is listening to other strength training coaches and researchers who in the last year or two have been putting out a ton of awesome media on strength training. And when you are listening to an actual coach of strength training or bodybuilding, one of the things that I hear the most is, especially when it comes to like exercise selection or technique there's they understand the high degree of individualization that needs to happen and I think in the cycling world we are like 20 or 30 years behind strength training in terms of understanding individualization and that's that's one of the things that I've always been about but I've always felt a little odd for it because Everybody's like, oh, well, this study says this. And I'm like, well, look at the individual responses. Is this work for everybody? Where are they in terms of the year? There's a lot of different aspects of that where I've frankly been a little disappointed in cycling. But if you look at the strength training literature, you could make those exact same interpretations of the literature. But the strength training coaches are like, well, we understand that not everybody. Can do just like barbell back squats. Some people need to do hack squats. Some people need to do belt squats and et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, that kind of stuff has always bugged me a little bit about cycling, but I mean, you are, I think you're, this is all a long winded way to say that you are spot on about, about, you know, kind of making the process and, and everything work for you and having that good process of like watching. Watching your performance. Because I mean, this has been my benchmark for forever. And, you know, this is your benchmark too, which is, are you fast and are you getting faster? Right, exactly. That's what it is. I think that... you know there's this in cycling it can be super dangerous also it can it can you can fall into these these roots hormonally or otherwise where it's just not it's there are small things that you do that over a long period of time can really make some significant not just your performance but also to your health and so trying to kind of fit into that that that one size fits all Form of what an athlete should do is just, it's really unrealistic. I mean, I think that if you work long enough with an individual coach and think individually about yourself as an athlete for long enough, you end up learning or having the instinct to learn like, oh, that was a bad idea. This winter, there was one long ride where I was like, okay, we were just, it was like a pain train kind of thing. It was some random Sunday, we were going to do like seven hours and just, which is great, which is fine. But in the last like hour, I was like, okay, I'm going to stop. We're almost home, I'm going to stop at this because I'm out of food and I'm going to have a snack. And there was one guy on the ride who was like, no, we're going to keep going, this is how you get faster. And I'm like, okay. And I was hurting for like three days after that. I'm like, what am I doing? This is the opposite of what my philosophy is. Come on, cowards, just keep riding. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's not enjoyable. So anyways, yeah, it's all an individual thing. And you don't want to shout out the companies that kind of make it. Make a business model on this sort of thing, but I'll tell you, I'm not racing against those guys. So, um, yeah. Um, so what would be your absolute best piece of advice to people, uh, who want to like balance anything with training and writing? Uh, best piece of advice is just to make sure that you enjoy it. I mean, um, and that I think encompasses everything. You're going to enjoy things better if you're fueling yourself a lot more. You're going to enjoy things better if it's not your be-all and end-all. You're going to enjoy things a lot more if you're hanging out with people that you enjoy and not to sort of just get ahead of the sport, in the sport. You're going to... Enjoy yourself more if you're always trying to push yourself into new zones with training, but also know when to rest and kind of not think about racing all that much or training all that much. And so I think it's have that kind of balance and just to make sure that it's always enjoyable. I think there have been periods in my life, even though cycling isn't, you know, it's not where I make my money or will, that, you know, I've taken it super seriously, certainly, and I've fallen into the pit of like, this really isn't super enjoyable for me right now. It's only when I've gotten back to being a fully functional adult and individual and a good friend, a good partner, a good son, that sort of thing that I feel like it's worth it to be doing this. And I think that that benefits all parts of your life. It's not a sacrifice you have to make in training to back off from training every once in a while. No, you're absolutely right. And yeah, I love it. Yeah, let's leave it there. Sure, sounds good. Alright, thank you everybody for listening to the podcast. Cole is out of here so I'm just going to outro this and if you enjoyed that, please share it with somebody because that's the best way for the podcast to get a good reputation and if you are also interested in becoming a coaching or consultation client, please shoot me an email at empiricalcycling at gmail.com and go give me a follow on Instagram if you want to ask questions for our future podcast episodes and just in the meantime, yeah, again, Good luck to everybody at Worlds this week and good luck to everybody finishing out their racing and also to our people going to cyclocross and UCI World Cups and all that kind of fun stuff. So yeah, we'll see you all on the next podcast.